I present to you 2 arguments. Well one attack and one response really.
Joel Splosky talks down to Ruby on Rails while extolling the virtues of his own private closed source framework (compiler he reffers to it as) Wasabi*
David Heinnemer Hannsen responds and sticks up for his baby.
I am slightly confused by Joel’s bashing of rails (which he does, let’s face it he says it’s an immature not ready for production toy language) but in the same breath says his in house compiler written by his best programmer is just fine and is a fully functional language based on basic.
Huh? Is this a case of do as I say, not as I do?
* I’m still not sure if the name is a joke, it appears it is real
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There aren’t any compilers that will generate PHP5 and VB Script. So, what else was he supposed to do?
I’m certainly not faulting him for what he has done. I just feel the argument he is making (against rails) is somewhat faulted. Trust me I love fogbugz (we use it all the time at work).
It just seems to me he’s a bit misinformed about ruby on rails while obviously very knowledgable about his own product.
Hang on, wasn’t the point about Wasabi?
If there are issues about Rails then let’s hear them. I’d like to hear DHH and others addressing those instead of throwing “FUD! FUD!” around.
my point is that ruby on rails is the same thing as wasabi… it’s just been extracted and open sourced. Rails started out as a closed source developer tool used to build basecamp, sound familiar?
From the sounds of DHH’s response he does concede that performance has been sacrificed to a degree for rapid development but with commodity hardware is it really that big of a deal?
Well,
I respectfully disagree about Joel bashing the RoR.
Yes, he says things like Ruby and Rails are not there yet for enterprises. But I just fail to see where he has gone wrong.
There are so many things enterprise environments require of the platform that have nothing to do with the platform’s technical merits. It’s not about PHP or Java or .NET being superior to Ruby – its more about safe choices.
Basically the way I read into the article, is that Joel claims (among other things) that RoR is not _yet_ a “safe choice” of a platform to be easily deployed in an enterprise.
Yes – if the enterprise is lucky enough to have an architect who has deep knowledge and long experience with Ruby and Rails, they can try to build their services around RoR.
OTOH – If they don’t it’s much safer to choose one of the Big Three, as they are likely to be much more expertise and knowledge base built around those than Ruby or Python.
There is no such thing as “Perfect Platform” Every platform has its quirks and its rough edges. And there are always ways to get into trouble whatever platform You choose. If you know those pitfalls – you can choose the platform with safety. If You don’t … you are taking a risk that is going to cost you your Job if You screw up!
I agree with you in principal Roland, but my major point of difference is that how is rails supposed to get any sort of enterprise traction without eearly adopters? Without the open source community around the software and the early adopters taking the risks and go into production with it the language will never move forward.
Why do otherwise intelligent people have such a hard time understanding the difference between RoR and Wasabi. It’s so simple a five year old could get it. Joel makes the perfectly valid argument that RoR may not be ready for enterprise prime time (but he doesn’t discount its future applicability). He then mentions Wasabi, but he’s not saying that it’s enterprise-ready either. In fact, he directly says it would NOT be appropriate for wide-spread use; but it works for their specific needs. Unlike DHH though, Joel is not touting his internally built tool/DSL as a miracle elixir to cure whatever ails you.
I don’t the DHH’s point is that Rails is some enterprise class language… I think his issue is that Joel was instilling some unnecessary fear into people. Sure ROR might not be ready for the big time but how will it ever be unless some people lead the charge and take some risks and use it?
I haven’t really seen anyone not get the distinction between the 2?
One man’s unnecessary fear is another’s reasonable caution. I don’t see anything the least bit unreasonable about Joel’s comments on Rails. DHH’s reply on the other hand was completely over the top, childish even.
“I haven’t really seen anyone not get the distinction between the 2?”
The whole “do as I say, not as I do” argument brought up by David and repeated by everyone, including yourself, is what I’m talking about. Wasabi is not a platform for the masses. It’s a very specific tool to solve a very specific problem that, AFAIK, isn’t solved by any available language or platform. Where’s the “do as I say, not as I do” in creating such tools?
“It’s a very specific tool to solve a very specific problem that, AFAIK, isn’t solved by any available language or platform.”
and that is exactly what rails was 3 years ago. Again, I’m not comparing apples to oranges here… I am simply saying that Joel is being a little irresponsible in his very negative attitude towards rails that is all
“and that is exactly what rails was 3 years ago”
Which is exactly why nobody should get offended when Joel suggests that it might not yet be the safest choice for enterprise class development.
“I am simply saying that Joel is being a little irresponsible in his very negative attitude towards rails that is all”
He didn’t show a “very negative” attitue towards Rails. He classified it as a platform “where The Jury Is Not In” but also said that for non-mission-critical apps it would probably be perfectly ok to use. He also cited some very good reasons why he doesn’t consider it mature enough for Fortune 500s to start betting the company on. There was no bashing or negativity. Irresponsible would be if he had said “sure, I think Rails is just as safe a choice as .NET or Java for anything you might want to do” when, in fact, it is not.
It’s amazing how many people jumped on Joel’s back, not because what he said was wrong (none of his criticisms of RoR are incorrect) but because he dare to attack the sacred cow of Rails.
LOL, come on dude. You know i’m not a rails guy… I also didn’t say any of his criticism’s were incorrect either. They are simply his opinions and they are proven wrong by a various number of sites that run on rails in an enterprise environment.
why you so mad?
oh also, i love fogcreek and joe’s products… my life would would be a living hell without fogbugz.
I was talking to you specifically jonezy, just in general.
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